You’re still going through changes, there is so much that we don’t know.
"My poor mother
begged for a sheep
but raised a wolf.”
// for girls with razor sharp claws and golden rings adorned on their fingers; the scrapes on your knees from praying ooze time and time again, but it doesn’t matter, no, it doesn’t matter because you no longer weep for your wounds. you do not weep because you are stronger than that. you are the wolf hidden among the sheep. [listen] [how to: download]
I dislike both of those things, I don’t wanna start a fight either I just wanna say an opinion yeah?
First off I wanna say I’m not intending to attack anyone’s ship, but I personally don’t like MJ and Peter. I’d also like to say that it’s not a matter of MJ vs Gwen, even if I do like Gwen more.
First off, MJ was literally created as a side character and rival for Peter’s love, she was only meant to add drama. Stan Lee once stated that Gwen was meant to be his one true love. Well, I’m not trying to make you ship my ship, just, tell you a bit about MJ.
I think personally that MJ loves Spiderman more than she does Peter, the man vs. mask thing.
Plus Mj inadvertently lead to Gwen’s death, not intentionally, but she was the catalyst even if it wasn’t actually her FAULT. She tells Peter in one comic that finding out he’s Spiderman doesn’t change her feelings for him and she still only sees him as a friend. Then of course, they start dating.
She almost had an affair with a coworker for a soap opera she was in, in universe 616 she tells Peter to stop being Spiderman. And at one point during an argument tells him he needs to put their relationship before Spiderman, and then cuts him off when he begins explaining about Uncle Ben.
All of her plots involve sexual assault/stalking/ and kidnapping. She gets stalked, harassed and kidnapped at least 4 times and it’s really the majority of her plot points she takes an active role in.
A preference is something I can respect. Factual inaccuracy I cannot. Mary Jane has routinely been shown to struggle with the fact Peter is Spider-Man. She loves Peter, and Peter is both Spider-Man and Peter Parker, but she fundamentally prefers the man over the mask.
It is true that Gwen was originally intended to be Peter’s ultimate love interest and MJ was created as a rival for Gwen. That is factually true and whilst the above person I don’t think was trying to say Gwen or MJ are better or worse because of that, I will simply say that fact doesn’t take anything away from MJ nor does it add anything to Gwen’s character. If one goes solely by the intentions of the creators at any given time Sabretooth should be Wolverine’s father, Anarchy should be the Joker’s son, Donna Troy shouldn’t even exist and Gambit might’ve been Cyclops’ brother.
Gwen’s death amounted to much more than MJ. Whilst MJ was an important contributing factor the Spider-Man creative team of the time had been asked to consider shaking up the book and killing off a major character was one of the ways they were seriously considering accomplishing that. Aunt May was an option that was eventually decided against. At the same time the creative team felt that the only place they could realistically go with Peter and Gwen’s relationship was marriage, an option they didn’t want to take up, at least not at that point in time (fair enough Peter had only had 2-3 girlfriends and was a very young man). They felt (foolishly) that breaking the couple up would be unrealistic and just not an option.
Additionally the death of Gwen stemmed from Gerry Conway’s own dislike of the character generally speaking as well as frustrations he felt over the political and social situation in America at the time. Conway has been (perhaps unnnecesarilly cruelly) as a ‘bleeding heart liberal’ and he has been on record as saying that played into the Death of Gwen Stacy storyline as it was partially his artistic statement about things like the Vietnam War. In particular he’s said this was why it was Spider-Man himself who snapped Gwen’s neck. I suppose one could interpret it as symbolism of the fact that the American government in thier intentions to combat the forces of Communism, were themselves perpetuating a war which was causing a lot of harm to the American people and the people of Vietnam. Obviously there was more to the Vietnam war than that but that is a possible interpretation of how Conway felt about the war and how it influenced him in writing the Death of Gwen Stacy story.
No, that isn’t exactly what happened. MJ DID NOT say knowing he was Spider-Man didn’t change her feelings for him. She actually said it’d take some getting used to. She did say they were just friends but in the issues before and after that story (ASM #259) it was implied that that wasn’t completely true, that MJ DID have romantic feelings for Peter after all. Bearing in mind in the same issue Peter agrees with her abut them just being friends but pages later wonders about them hooking up again. For the next two years they were sort of dating in a very strange way wherein they did not admit they were involved with one another again but very obviously were.
None of this was contradictory storytelling, it was a perfectly possible exploration of a particular kind of love story, where we organically saw the two of them growing closer from the new developments in their friendship as seen in ASM #259. After all I think most people agree it is important for two people in a romantic relationship to be friends with one another. Also the issue you are referencing came out like over 10 years AFTER Gwen died.
“Almost had an affair with a co-worker from a soap opera she was in”. Jason Jerome? Excuse me sir/madam that wasn’t ‘almost had an affair’ anything. She felt attracted to a man during a period of time when she was lonely and vulnerable. It was a TEMPTATION. It happens to the best of us. But what is important (and what most everyone referencing the Jason Jerome incident conveniently forget) is that the entire point was that she DIDN’T do anything wrong. The whole story built and built to this moment where she humiliates him, shows him the door and affirms the point that she loves Peter and will be faithful to him.
Jason Jerome kissed MJ out of the blue twice, against her will and both times she pushed him away but felt guilty because she enjoyed it. Which isn’t exactly a crime nor does it amount to being unfaithful. If she had been the one initiating the kiss or was actively seeking a romance of physical interaction with Jason Jerome THEN she’d be in the wrong. But as was she did NOTHING that earned anyone’s scorn (besides recite terrible dialogue).
And if we were to play the blame game when it come to cheating…dude…Gwen slept with Norman. Now she wasn’t dating anyone at the time so it was not cheating but, she slept with her oldest friend’s dad, got pregnant by him then didn’t tell her boyfriend Peter about it but wanted/expected him to marry her and also raise her children with her. The children who were his best friend/roommate’s half-siblings btw…when he was like 19 or 20 years old….
I think THAT is a bit more of a valid cause to criticise a character for than “this dude kissed MJ against her will and she liked it but ultimately told him to get lost”.
Now with all that being said I don’t hold Sins Past against Gwen because it makes NO sense within continuity and was asinine.
Excuse me right but NAME the times she tells Peter to stop being Spider-Man? Name them and I can 99.9% guarantee you they were times when:
a) She was being written OUT of character which means it’s bullshit for you or anyone to count it when evaluating her character and/or
b) She was highly strung, stressed out or otherwise not thinking straight
c) She was concerned for Peter’s well being. God what a horrible selfish woman caring about the well being of the man she loves and/or
d) She wasn’t telling him to properly quit just take a break. E.g. in Maximum Carnage she asked him to take a break from being Spider-Man but not quit outright
e) Peter himself had ALREADY quit and she was trying to make him stick to that. E.g. in the Clone Saga a heavily pregnant Mary Jane on multiple occasions tried to dissuade Peter from doing anything that resembled super hero work. Which if you were a heavily pregnant woman who’s been through THE MOST DARK AND TRAUMATIC YEAR OF YOUR ENTIRE LIFE you’d want your husband to not do anything risky either would you.
Also is it unreasonable for a woman who lives with the stress and anxiety and complications of life with a super hero to COMPLAIN about it sometimes or to wonder whether she is as/more important to her husband than that life? No it is not
Also unless you are referencing another incident, the one and only time I know of where Peter is talking about being Spider-Man because of Uncle Ben and when MJ cuts him off is in ASM #605.
Let me tell you about ASM #605.
ASM #605 is propaganda. It is a smear piece. It is a piece of shit whitewashing story designed to make Mary Jane look as bad as possible so that you hate her and are glad that after OMD her marriage to Peter was erased. Or on the flipside it’s designed to make her and Peter’s relationship look so terrible you are also glad that it got erased.
It is a character assassination story which is completely disingenuous for you, me or anyone else to take into account when examining the character.
It’s like looking at One More Day and saying “Yeah THAT’S TOTALLY what Peter, Mary Jane, Mephisto or Doctor Strange would say/do” when (like ASM #605) it is so far and away from what we have seen and known about the characters over the years it’s basically a different character. Mary Jane would NEVER act the way she did in ASM #605, not without good reason and/or apologising afterwards.
ASM #605 and OMD are the very definition of out of character, by referencing it (which I am assuming you were, perhaps I am wrong) you are actually undermining your own credibility/argument because you either do not KNOW that it’s out of character or are deliberately ignoring that fact.
Seriously the number of times she is actively SUPPORTING Peter being Spider-Man outnumber the times she’s ever actively tried to get him to quit.
“All of her plots involve sexual assault/stalking/ and kidnapping”
a) Good thing Gwen’s most famous storyline didn’t have her kidnapped, lay unconscious then passively die then. It’s not like she got kidnapped multiple times or anything?
b) You are seriously going to single out a female character in a super hero comic as bad on the grounds that she gets kidnapped? Dude that’s like 90% of female love interests across ALL fiction in the 20th century. Lois Lane and April O’Neil called that Tuesday.
c) Super villains stalking people isn’t exactly a new thing to MJ. Doctor Doom and the Green Goblin technically stalked Spider-Man himself in ASM #5 and #39 which was before MJ was even introduced
d) MJ has literally had like 4 or 5 stories where she’s had a stalker in her 50ish years of existence. Not exactly ALL of her stories is it? Hell some of those were introduced and handled in one issue so they hardly count. And getting stalked or harassed that number of times across DECADES is a pathetic argument to make
e) Unless you’re going for a very broad definition of sexual assault literally name ONE story with MJ involving sexual assault. Not a story involving sexual assault which MJ happens to be in. An actual story about MJ being sexually assaulted. Because apart from TWO incidents where Chameleon and Doc Ock tried to rape her by deception (i.e. they didn’t even DO any assaulting) There has never been a story where MJ gets sexually assaulted. Unless you count Jonathan Caesar but that was just plain assault, not sexual assault
f) You are right ALL of MJ’s stories involve all those things you mentioned. ASM #259, Parallel Lives, ASM #50, Sensational Spider-Man #32, that story where she is filming Lobster man, Spider-Man Unlimited V3 #2, Spider-Man Unlimited volume 1 #7, the Jason Jerome subplot, her cousin Kristy’s anorexia, the subplot where she was dating Flash Thompson, the time she worked at a dance club owned by the Kingpin, Spider-Island, even ASM #605, ALL sexual assault/stalking/ and kidnapping stories.
g) It’s not like the MAJORITY of the time she isn’t involved in stories like that she’s just a character Peter talks to or hangs out with. No those are the ONLY stories she participates in
h) It’s also not like in several of those kidnapping stories she shows herself to be competent and kick ass and on at least two occasions saves herself AND Spider-Man AND other people
i) Outside of organising Flash Thompson’s going away party or helping a sleazy politician name ONE plotline Gwen Stacy ever took an active role in?
j) It’s also not like she takes relatively few active roles in stories because she is a SUPPORTING character and the book ISN’T ABOUT HER. Like seriously do you expect Aunt May, J. Jonah Jameson, Harry Osborn or Joe Robertson to take a tremendous amount of active roles in the series.
k) Why don’t you make a list of all the MJ stories ever and SHOW us those that the majority of her stories amount to that.
l) I think someone is either woefull misinformed/hasn’t read up enough/is actively lying
You can PREFER one character over another but don’t LIE about stuff.
#friendly reminder oliver thought he was about to die :)#friendly reminder this is the last conversation they had before thea went to merlyn :)#friendly reminder that oliver thinks she’s safe when she’s actually not :) (via jaegermighty)
The lack of tattoos on my body is highly upsetting.
MAKE ME CHOOSE (grey’s anatomy edition):
→ Dark and Twisty Meredith Grey
or& Happy Meredith Grey
→ Meredith Grey or
Cristina Yangasked by anon & jilyspotters
“Be soft. Do not let the world make you hard. Do not let the pain make you hate. Do not let the bitterness steal your sweetness.” — Kurt Vonnegut
#look LOOK HOW LOVELY THEY ARE #how they just love each otehr so much #they know each other so well #how teasing she is and bashfully happy he is #AND THEN…AND THEN #I’M CURLINF INTO A BALL CRYING TEARS F BLOOD #shipping this to my dying breath (via shardsofblu)
1. state your name: genevieve
2. state the name that your parents almost named you: sam, if i was a boy
3. which of your relatives do you get along with the most? my brothers
4. did anything embarrassing happen this week? i’m surrrrre
5. do you miss your ex? never had one
6. white chocolate or dark chocolate? cookies n cream
7. do people praise you for your looks? meh
8. what is your favorite color of clothing to wear? blue or black
9. how do you wear your makeup? foundation and eyebrow stuff and sometimes bronzer
10. what are some of your nicknames? genny, mostly. my dad calls me jedidiah
11. how many bedrooms are in your house? 5
12. how many bathrooms? 2
13. do you have a car? sure do
14. do you work out every week? not at all
15. did you brush your teeth this morning? of course
16. have you ever kissed someone you never saw again? hahahahaha yup
17. have you ever sung in front of a crowd? i got drunk and did karaoke once with a group of friends though not just me
18. what kind of bathing suit do you wear? a black one
19. do you like your eyes? yeah man
20. do you think you are pretty? meh, no
21. who was the last person you talked to in person? coworker right behind me like 1 second ago
22. how much money in your bank account? today is payday so probably a thousand something
23. are you single? yep
24. do you want kids? not at all
25. last movie you saw in theaters: into the storm lol
26. are you dating the same person you dated last year? nope
27. has someone you were dating ever cheated on you? i made out w/ a dude who had two kids and a fiance but i’ve never dated anybody sooo
28. have you kissed someone whose name starts with a ‘J’? hahaha in kindergarten!
29: what do you like to do in your spare time? tumblr, tv, rp, eat
30: who was the last person you texted? the bff
31: how do you look right now? wearing a dress w/ birds on it BIRDS
32: who/what first comes to your mind when someone mentions “love”? family i guess